Banking shake-up, refinancing surge, and trust tax turmoil

Speaker 1: This is a Momentum Media production.

Speaker 2: We're live. Phil Tarrant, welcome to Property Buzz Friday morning. Running off the backs of a big day yesterday in the world of banking, one of our... Partner businesses here at Momentum had a big day ran held the future of banking summit in town in Sydney and also big awards night last night for the banking innovation awards inaugural event so it was pretty good black tie affair so I'm a bit croaky at the moment there's a good reason why and you certainly see a theme this being on a Friday morning I'm normally coming in either having a bacon and a roll or something similar which would indicate maybe one too many champagnes the evening before heavy lies the crown of someone who goes to probably about 80 black tie functions every single year you know lots of networking lots of chatting but I do find it's a great opportunity to actually connect and engage with people I get a lot of information and stories that I can tell on Property Buzz At these events and one of them I picked up yesterday, which really got my attention. I want to chat about that today as well as a bunch of other things I'm running with my guest. Panel at the moment for the last sort of couple of weeks you would have seen Tom Panos on last week and prior to that I've had Liam Garmin who is my regular guest who will be back soon but today joining me this morning is Julian Barnes he's my colleague here at Momentum he works across some of our mortgage broker orientated products he's got his own podcast called the Broker Daily Podcast he's a bloke who knows what's That's what's going on in mortgages. So I've given him. which is in the spirit of Property Buzz. All but 10 minutes I've noticed this morning to actually come and have a chat with me as the guy who's going to help us steer the narrative around what's happening in real estate and property over this week that's just taken place. Julian, welcome to the show, man. What's going on?

Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for having me, Phil. It's a privilege. I think I'm probably in a better state than you maybe. No, no, it's great to be on and you picked a... It's an opportune week for me to come on because the Broken World's been firing on all cylinders from really important news to maybe the slightly farcical as well,

Speaker 2: let's let's let's say so you're

Speaker 3: getting

Speaker 2: you're an old hand at this this sort of podcast broadcast lark these days but you haven't really been doing too long for someone who's only been in mortgages i would say oh god i'm gonna say nine no how long now

Speaker 3: about. Ten months,

Speaker 2: 10 months

Speaker 3: nine months.

Speaker 2: i was going to say nine months 10

Speaker 3: It's

Speaker 2: months

Speaker 3: flown,

Speaker 2: mate

Speaker 3: though.

Speaker 2: you've picked it up like you wouldn't believe and your coverage and commentary on on broker daily and that's for you for those of you uh in broker broker land you probably consume a lot of information it's where you keep informed about what's going on but julian's picked it up really quickly and i rely on his commentary and coverage when i'm trying to get info uh around broker when i'm on probably buzz trying to make up uh themes and topics and make it assume or appear that actually Actually, now what I'm talking about, these are the sort of information from people I borrow from. But good to have you on, Julian. I've been wanting to have you on for a little while and it was opportune time for me to bring you on. Now, I had a chat last night with someone and. And this is around the banking innovation awards and obviously the banking summit yesterday. And a lot of the commentary or that cohort of people, you know, you

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: think banking is mortgages. It's mortgages is a big part of banking, but the third party channel is probably a smaller part and, you know, we can get absorbed and obsessed with it. But I do know it's a new market share for mortgage broker market share this week came out. Is that correct?

Speaker 3: 81.6 we have. you have got to so i mean we've gone up i think it's about eight percent in a year right

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: like it does make you wonder how far can this go like it's a mental i think there was a few kind of a bit of chat in the room particularly at the summit around ai around what agentic ai is doing in the banking sector and how that's going to impact the broker channel right um i think there's a few kind of squeaky

Speaker 2: Oh, a lot of,

Speaker 3: bums

Speaker 2: well,

Speaker 3: there right

Speaker 2: it's really funny. the bank cohort is because you sort of connected and engaged with the third party channel i'm talking there's been sort of industry speak so the mortgage broker channel um you you become a bit blinkered around

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 2: it all but most banks most bank bankers they still sort of they love the idea of proprietary channel they would rather not a bit of a topical conversation but they would rather everyone use a proprietary channel rather than broker channel however that said broker market share is as high as ever but they're going Yeah, you know, like it's a genetic AI now. People can do most of the work themselves and they don't really need brokers anymore. So we think there's going to be pick up in proprietary based mortgages,

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: whether or not,

Speaker 3: i

Speaker 2: you know, the numbers aren't telling us that now.

Speaker 3: think there's two sides to it right like well there always is with these kind of things like as you say like i definitely get you know blinkered a little bit when i'm in the third party channel you see that as the be all and end all when you know obviously particularly when i start talking to majors you know i interview some of the some of the majors from cba nab and stuff you realize you know they have a much broader view of the of the mortgage market than perhaps maybe i do or maybe the brokers that i work with do that being said of course they it always surprises me how much they charge a price property when they have this incredible system to get their to get their loans out and they also have clearly competitive products because they're they're written the most i think the worry is that agenda k i with open banking right where you start seeing the consumer being able to choose for themselves and you start seeing that being said i think as always with the broker channel you've just seen the value added in so many different ways that even in these softer periods i think we'll get into this you know it's so interesting seeing the records that we've seen right but then at the same time we're seeing an incredibly yeah much softer period among most of home loans you where we're separating you know the fat from the way is

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: what brokers have actually stuck with their clients or the way hit those touch points and ended up with you know a really sustainable business there right

Speaker 2: i'll tell you a story and you probably buzz around stories and anecdotes for me and me getting stats and figures wrong which

Speaker 3: I

Speaker 2: i'm pretty good

Speaker 3: like that.

Speaker 2: at all the time so i've got a um i've got a couple of home loans i've got quite a lot of quite a few home lines but two in particular and i hadn't checked my i get a thing of post stacks up my desk oh shit there might be something important in there i better sort of empty it no went through it all and there was two different um won't say who the bank is but there was two two different letters come through from the same bank and they said Mr. Tarrant your five-year interest only period is going to end I don't know February of next year

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: right and this is your current rate and we think that your new rate when you're going to go from interest only the P&I is going to be this right in in February and I went Well, that's substantially less than the P&I rate I already have with the same bank. And I went, that doesn't make much sense. And I've had a bit of an argy-bargy with this bank beforehand, and I don't want to beat them up too much. They're pretty good. I like the banks better. I'm just talking about playing the man here, right? So I said... I'm going to call this bank up and have a yarn to them, right? And I called them up and I was on hold for a little while, finally got to someone and went, same old discussion, hey, my mortgage brokers told me to go and refinance all this stuff and pull out some equity and stuff, but something's popped up here. And I noticed that you're telling me that you're going to give me this interest rate when... when when when this loan turns into a P&I rate I actually have a more expensive rate can I just have that rate now thanks no and no we can't do that and I went but you're telling me in the future you're going to give me a cheaper rate I've had these loans with you for for five years and you're actually going to offer me a cheaper P&I rate at the point of time that it becomes a P&I loan I said I'll just have that one now and they went oh let me just go and have a look in the system you heard some tapping and this that and the other and I went no no you're on the maximum discount and i went so you're telling me that interest rates are going to go down and therefore you'll factor in that into the fact that when this actually becomes a p

Speaker 3: and Yeah.

Speaker 2: i rate that's right you're going to give me that went well we can't give you any advice or notice around interest rates and i went the rate's not sharp enough you're going to have to change it you know or i'm going to move and i went no no we've looked at the system and essentially get stuffed right and i went okay so last night i had a chat and i want to talk to you about this And I heard some numbers, and I think you've written about it, that there's something like 1800 or 1500, I can't remember exactly the number of borrowers are moving banks every single day.

Speaker 3: Yes, there's 1800 borrowers a day. So this is, yeah, yeah. So this hits some serious news, particularly for the majors. That story is so interesting,

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3: I feel,

Speaker 2: yeah.

Speaker 3: because it hits so many. It just feels like there's not someone with two. do brain cells rub together to be like let's be competitive here let's

Speaker 2: First

Speaker 3: figure this

Speaker 2: thing I

Speaker 3: out

Speaker 2: do yeah I Google Phil Tarrant and just go this guy talks about mortgages all the time I know I've done and I've done the right thing by not saying who the bank is I

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: could do yeah

Speaker 3: it reminds me so so much of when this was about a month and a half ago two months ago where we saw a bunch of it was APRA and ASIC came out and said did this big investigation and half of borrowers that their offset accounts weren't linked and they said what's happening here and basically there was no accountability there was no person in the middle looking at this sensibly no mid-level banker being like this needs to be done and i'm part of that you know we had some uh a broker from broker day down company said well i've worked in the major banks and they've gutted these teams and essentially there's not enough people looking at these things with proper you know with

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3: proper I eyes

Speaker 2: put a bit of BS on that, right? Like if you're the borrower, look at it yourself and go, hang on a second, why is

Speaker 3: i

Speaker 2: my interest

Speaker 3: did think so that big

Speaker 2: high?

Speaker 3: because loads of loads of brokers also were like got calls from their clients

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: being like why haven't you set them off yet and the broker's like this isn't my job this that's not my job to set up your bloody offset I've account

Speaker 2: had so many, even the best brokers around, it always gets lost in, like you get this. no matter pay where you get a loan and you say do this that and the other they always fail to link the accounts properly you always got to fight with them you always got to get back you know you got to check it as a borrower

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: you got to check this stuff you know you can't i can't you can't

Speaker 3: Slightly

Speaker 2: relate responsibility

Speaker 3: have a lot of complacency

Speaker 2: yeah

Speaker 3: in

Speaker 2: come

Speaker 3: people and

Speaker 2: on like just you go hang on a second i've got you know half of the loan offset why am i paying the full amount of what the repayment is something's not right here come on so yeah don't blame your broker

Speaker 3: It reminds me a bit of, sorry, we're going off. going off piece but this seems what it's all about um i don't want to call out you know from my well i

Speaker 2: Do it.

Speaker 3: my own generation but there was a bunch of research that came out i think it was great southern bank that looked at they basically looked at gen z and they asked like how many people are actually you know looking at their retirement looking at their super and making sure that everything kind of added up and they realized that it was about half of people that weren't even thinking about it yeah

Speaker 2: You've got to be responsible. You've got to be responsible and accountable. And cannibalism

Speaker 3: yeah yeah yeah

Speaker 2: before cannibalism.

Speaker 3: it's a bit right like you see them you know investing in EFTs you see them investing in but in that kind of long-termism I think can get lost a little bit

Speaker 2: Yeah, it can do. 1,800 borrowers a day are switching.

Speaker 3: right yeah let's get into this

Speaker 2: So

Speaker 3: so

Speaker 2: they're switching their home loan with

Speaker 3: for

Speaker 2: Bank.

Speaker 3: FY26 this is according to Alula $371 billion in home loan balances moved between lenders which is around around 664,000 customers switching. Home loan churn increased $41 billion or 13% year on year. And I think what's quite interesting is that most of the churn is not being driven by property sales. Customers are increasingly retaining their homes but switching lender. So I think brokers probably have a bit of a play to this.

Speaker 2: I'm sure they do.

Speaker 3: And not for bad reason. You know, I think that that the banks need to kind of sharpen not just their rates but their entire proposition and that feeds into what you were saying just then because i think what's really interesting here is it wasn't just rates that was the defining factor when they talked to borrowers that were moving it was also service yeah

Speaker 2: yeah i get it and and you know this is a general comment but it's a lot cheaper and financially rewarding for a lender to keep a home loan than to originate a new home loan like they need to hold on to it for a period of time anyway just to get back the the cost to actually originate it right you've got to pay the broker and all the other stuff around it this marketing costs all this sort of stuff so so they want to keep customers and clients right it's the problem with with the sector is that you're penalized by being loyal and

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: you hear all the time when people say it right but like just because you stick with a bank doesn't mean the bank's going to look after you even though what you see they put on and i'm generalizing here but i'm saying banks that includes other lenders as well but they go yeah we're the bank that does x and we care about y and we're here to serve you and there's pictures of happy families and all this stuff on the internet and on adverts but mate if you're a sleeve of the wheel as a borrower mate the banks will try and take every cent

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: they possibly can that's a topical cool that's topical but it's true unless you're on it going mr and mrs bank i can get this same rate here that you're not even coming to you're gonna have to come to the party

Speaker 3: that's why the the broker channel has proven you know so strong

Speaker 2: 81 yeah

Speaker 3: right and then i guess One parallel that's quite interesting, well, I think is business banking has seen a slightly different route here. So when I talk to brokers in that they say that customers are much more sticky with their bankers and with banks because the ecosystem is easier,

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: right? And I think there's surely there's parallels to learn here where brokers find it hard to unpeel some business customers from, you know, oh, you can get this. that well the banks have that ecosystem right it reminds me of apple right you've got an iphone it's easy to get the apple headphones you know it's easy to get the macbook it's easiest to do everything for a business bank if you've got that customer account it's okay right okay well i may as well

Speaker 2: sometimes

Speaker 3: do this i may as well I'll get overdraft

Speaker 2: make it a big contingency

Speaker 3: yeah and

Speaker 2: right if you've got a business overdraft often they make that available if you have your personal

Speaker 3: then it

Speaker 2: home

Speaker 3: makes sense

Speaker 2: loans right with them right you know it's all flywheel ecosystem but if it's not get there from a from a corporate point of view like a shareholder and all we're in all the big banks you don't want them to make as much money as possible right but it comes back to the point 800 borrowers a day are switching right

Speaker 3: Think about the administrative costs as well.

Speaker 2: you

Speaker 3: I guess that's

Speaker 2: think

Speaker 3: brokers

Speaker 2: about how

Speaker 3: involved.

Speaker 2: many how many brokers are there in australia 20 22

Speaker 3: 22,000.

Speaker 2: 000 right so And no doubt that's hopefully that's brokers doing their job.

Speaker 3: you're gonna see it more now you know in softer periods that every broker I talk to is like I'm looking at the refinance market you know that's what I'm looking at yeah yeah

Speaker 2: You know, the issue you have though is a lot of, when you think about it, right, a lot of investors, borrowing has been stifled because of the change of the tax regime, right? You know, they've got to be really hyper-focused on yield now and need to be hyper-focused on cash flow. So, you know, you wouldn't want to be paying a cent more interest than you. than you would do in this environment so

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: you know if that's you speak to your mortgage broker like get all your loans looked at and you're going to have the merry dance around it you know you call up your bank and you try and do it yourself or your broker can do it for you but you know a lot of banks they're a bit glib like again i'm not going to say who this bank was but it's it's a significantly large bank and it was just pretty much going i reckon they get trained to go nah got nothing because they know oh god this this is not going to be bothered to do the Do the work. He's not really going to switch. He's just trying his luck.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know, there's a psychology to all that, right? You know, but allegedly I'm on the biggest discount I can possibly get.

Speaker 3: When you see these figures, though, do these on the kind of investment side, do they figure there as well? Is it reflective? How sticky is an investor in terms of sticking with one lender or a group of one lender?

Speaker 2: investors are probably a lot more pragmatic in their lending arrangements and and most investors are again generalizing now they'll start with a major bank or a couple of major banks and then the major banks will start getting a bit nervous saying we've lent you too much no more for you you've reached our service really caps then I go to second tier banks and they'll milk that for us long and hard as they possibly can and then they'll end up in in maybe non-banks uh or or other sort of lending arrangements because they completely tap out service ability from the other ones so they don't really care the color of what's on the tin right they just want a dollar is a dollar is a dollar so um

Speaker 3: It adds

Speaker 2: they'll

Speaker 3: up.

Speaker 2: move they'll move for rate but a lot of investors rate is not the most significant aspect when they're choosing a home loan like whether it's you know six 6.4% or 6.8%. They go, I just want the money. I can handle that for a period of time or I'll take that lender until X, Y, Z. This probably goes up in value and I can refinance it a bit of LVR and I'll go to a different lender. So I reckon a lot of the refinancing would be investors.

Speaker 3: Oh God. Oh no.

Speaker 2: Now, I would then be a lot of investors because investors up until most recently, they'll be reworking. their loans pretty hard because they'll be looking to to refinance and extract equity so a lot of the times if they've got had substantial uplift in their portfolio and they want to refinance often the lender that they're currently with won't give them the valuation that

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: they want to extract that equity or they cannot get that equity out on the terms they want so typically the point of refinancing takes place when that equity release takes place so whether or not you've got that But that depth in the data of how much of this was, hey, I'm refinancing like for like, you know, a $500,000 loan with BankX to a $500,000 loan to BankY or whether it's a $500,000 loan that got topped up to $700,000 because they deployed the dough elsewhere. I'd like to go into that sort of depth of data, but still a big number. It's good to see that Australians are shopping around for their home loans, you

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: know, but lenders more than ever before need to be working harder. You know, item retention, like, yeah,

Speaker 3: yeah there's a this is quite uh wow the the retention strategy so you might have seen that hsbc is um pulling out of the australian home lending market

Speaker 2: who they sell to, was it BlackRock?

Speaker 3: black yeah

Speaker 2: Yeah, BlackRock did, yeah.

Speaker 3: pepper money i think is facilitating um but obviously you know they haven't got a small loan but but they haven't got a big loan but they're sizable

Speaker 2: and So they bought the book. book and what pepper's managing it

Speaker 3: hannah's

Speaker 2: for them is it

Speaker 3: managing yeah i think that the actual full sale is going to go through in november but uh i've seen two two banks already two major banks um one literally just put it out on linkedin the other um held a big meeting with with all their brokers that bdm did to

Speaker 2: right

Speaker 3: kind of

Speaker 2: refinance

Speaker 3: drum it up if you've got any hsbc customers just let us know we'll grab them yeah

Speaker 2: but but to your point around uh service right so You know, when a book, and we're talking a bit technical here, a book being a whole bunch of mortgages stuck together,

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: when that transitions into a phase where it might be owned by some sort of other non-active investment vehicle, typically what happens is that they look really hard at margins and often they're the people who are going, no more for you, I'm not discounting this, they're going to try and milk, again I'm generalising, but milk it for as long as possible. So you're probably not going to get. get the um certainly not going to get the service that you probably once had

Speaker 3: Mm

Speaker 2: um because it's in a different phase so yeah that's that's the reason why a lot of our lenders will aggressively uh attack that book and take those

Speaker 3: customers Yeah,

Speaker 2: on their book to try and refinance about saying we can offer you service we can go up so many more products i'm not sure what the hsbc product suite was no doubt they've got very similar products to other people but yeah i reckon the the crows will be picking

Speaker 3: the of

Speaker 2: eyes

Speaker 3: course

Speaker 2: out of that

Speaker 3: one of them took a pop-up uh i took a pop-up poor old pepper because they said oh well you don't know you don't know who this non-bank is i was like come

Speaker 2: yeah you get

Speaker 3: on come on

Speaker 2: that you

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: get that so um that's cool so that was good i heard that last night so it's good to get that that that inside around it's a key index right like i'd like to see more of those headlines how many aussies per day i

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: think 1800 is a lot like you think about 800 bucks times what's the average loan size i don't have 500 grand 600 grand probably yeah it's

Speaker 3: it's it's a rich

Speaker 2: a lot of dough

Speaker 3: tax

Speaker 2: moving

Speaker 3: couple every minute do you know i mean like it's just constant

Speaker 2: yeah yeah well just don't rest on your laurels um you know make sure you know what rate you've got for your home loan right now whether you're an investor or anyone else that's good patty we're going to go to a reaction video because it's from what i understand from the very short snippet that you showed me before and it's connected with something that i want to talk about and we don't listen to the whole thing it was a long one mate i'll i'll stop you midway but mate if you can play our video for a bit of a reaction that would be very cool mate

Speaker 4: Federal government have announced an update to the changes to trust as part of this year's May 12 budget. Now they are lauding this as a win for taxpayers but the devil is always in the detail. Let's break down what they've announced. Firstly a little bit of a backstory. As part of the May 12 budget they did announce that discretionary trusts would now be subjected to a 30% minimum tax. Then they had a consultation paper that was released on July. July 8 and closed on July 31. Taxpayers around the country were able to submit feedback. This included tax professionals, the legal and accounting bodies around the country. And we were waiting for the next step and this is called the exposure draft legislation. So that was announced today and this will close on September 18. I cannot stress enough, we are still at draft stage. This has not been legislated yet. yet it is still in discussions and you saw clearly what happened to CGT negative gearing when it passed both houses they have stated that they're hoping to get this legislated fully before Christmas so what were the changes that they announced today the key one that they're spruiking about is the ability for trust to no longer have to roll over into a proprietary limited as I said at the outset the devil is is in the detail. So a discretionary trust does what its name says. It gives you the discretion to actually distribute to any of the beneficiaries, no set amount every single year, as long as it adds up to 100%. You have the ability to do what you want year in, year out. What they're saying is if you don't want to have that minimum 30% tax, you lose that discretion. Basically, it becomes a fixed. trust without having to change the structure of the trust. So from 1 July 2028, you will need to make a determination on who or which beneficiary will get what percentage year in, year out. You no longer have that discretion. The only way that this can be changed at this stage, it's only draft, the only way that this can be changed is if there is a death or a marriage breakdown. So they're lording this as a great win for taxpayers that you don't need to roll over into a proprietary limited, but that is the catch. Now the key is, this isn't actually them giving a win to taxpayers. Let's look at this a little bit deeper. You've seen the reports in the past

Speaker 2: All

Speaker 4: couple

Speaker 2: right,

Speaker 4: of

Speaker 2: Paddy,

Speaker 4: months the

Speaker 2: I think we get the gist there. You guys write about this at all over the week?

Speaker 3: Yeah, we're over it a bit because obviously I affect. brokers clients and it and to a certain extent it affects brokers i mean there was worries at first that you know you might see if brokers want to kind of if brokers are kind of working for a discretionary trust you know their business then they might have to you know completely change their accreditations which would have been a nightmare this

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3: was a

Speaker 2: good

Speaker 3: thing point. that was uh that was that was um warned about I don't think this really solves many of the issues that I've seen. It seems like a half-arsed grandfathering. It doesn't seem, yeah.

Speaker 2: Seems to be a trend there, right? It's, you know, there's so much responsibility being in government, right? You know, we don't need to get too political on this, but a government is there to provide leadership and certainty to people, right? And they go and do this budget and all they've done is create uncertainty and lack of leadership for people. So many people actually jumped the gun and started changing all their corporate structures on the basis of... this regime that was going to be put in place around his 30 percent um distribution tax and all this sort of so i know and and i think the treasure was out spruiking the rude health this right economy because all these businesses were created in july or august or something the reason why it's because people restructure right so everyone's gone and done that and then gone i probably didn't need to do it now right now there's this detail around you know you've got to actually say who's going to be the the beneficiary of the trust rather than having discretion around it right like Right. None of this is good for anyone. The

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: fact that no one knows what's going on, it just creates a vacuum of uncertainty. And a lot of this, right, is one of the reasons everyone goes, oh, the reason why the property market's going down is because of CGC changes and whatnot. It's because there's uncertainty. You know, the people are at the lowest ebb I've seen probably in my history of talking in and around property in relation to their sentiments. towards property and the sentiments towards their own wealth creation it's appalling at the moment so

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: all of this creates uncertainty and you know you get into the devil of detail you've given your work around now to do this like no one understands this stuff most accountants don't even understand it most accountants i talk to go mate we're still trying to work it out you just got people all over the internet talking about it you know so this this change in discretionary trust we need to remember it's it's now still in this consultation phase and whether or not it gets passed who knows the machinations of politics is weird but what we saw last time they tried to push something through and they didn't really have all of their facts or their ducks in a row or whether or not they have the support they needed doing deals in the background right the 11th hour to get stuff pushed through so who knows who knows what may happen who knows in order to get this push through the senate and then back to the house What other sort of deals are going to get done which is going to probably potentially compromise more Australians and create an even greater vacuum of uncertainty.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember back in end of Feb, there was obviously the Iran war, everything going on then. And I remember Albin EZ comes on and he's doing all the fuel changes and stuff, things that made him popular, right? And I remember him doing quite a powerful message at the end. again where this is pre-budget where he said the situation that we're in right now frustrating is not sustainable we need to figure out a way that australia can stand on its own two feet that can become an economy that works for australians that works for everyone and it's quite a powerful message and i think it resonated with most australians whether you're a business owner whether you're a young person you know working in early employment wherever you were it made sense and then and then the budget came out and you know you can get into the ins and outs of it but i don't see the this grand vision in it and as you say we've kind of got bogged down in in ins and out so this one for instance i think you're basically locking trusts as they are which will essentially mean at some point all trusts will change into the 30 right because you can say i'll opt for the other one

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: all right how long are you going to do that for how long particularly when these are family businesses usually you're going to have to change at some point

Speaker 2: They're going to have to change at some point. Or what people were doing is they'll grandfather their current structure and then moving forward they'll just create a more complicated structure where you have a different trust with a different beneficiary and this is what you'll wait and watch. The property spriggles will be out there sort of talking about this where you just new trust with a single beneficiary and you just go, okay, I'll do that for a while. well and

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: leave it and i'll move on and there's always the chase but like you know it's it's it's clear what it is it's the government trying that tax receipts are through the roof at the moment so um yeah look governments need to collect tax to do the good work that governments do i completely agree with that uh and what most people's sentiments are towards a budget is it was directly geared towards trying to raise government receipts in tax and with some complicated visions towards what the future of property investment is going to be within the realm or regime of tax structures right like all it is is no one knows what's going on seriously no

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: one knows and i said on record i went i bet you that doesn't go through i bet you that that won't go through in in in um in in in that way

Speaker 3: Did

Speaker 2: yeah

Speaker 3: you see, sorry, this is harking back a bit, but I'm interested what you think though. Did you see, not from whether you agree with it or not, but did you see the SMSF change from before or was that a real surprise for you that they kind

Speaker 2: no i said it was going to happen yeah

Speaker 3: they'll

Speaker 2: yeah you can go back and tune into it i think maybe in january or february i said wait and watch in the budget i

Speaker 3: come for it.

Speaker 2: don't think I don't think borrowing inside of your self-managed super fund through limited recourse arrangement, that's on the chopping block.

Speaker 3: Mm

Speaker 2: I actually telegraphed it and went, just don't think that's going to stay as it is. What I am telegraphing also, it's going to have to be reversed. Within 18 months, they're going to have to pull that back.

Speaker 3: yeah because it's

Speaker 2: already it's already crippling it's already crippling the construction new housing 30 40 percent of all commitments to new builds is through smsf's was

Speaker 3: estimations were wild on it as well right well they said how much it would be impacted versus how much actually was

Speaker 2: i think

Speaker 3: on

Speaker 2: the real

Speaker 3: the yeah

Speaker 2: number was four times the amount of people doing it than

Speaker 3: what they thought did you see as well that they estimated lvrs being much higher than they actually were and they were basically saying these these are really risky loans and and

Speaker 2: yeah

Speaker 3: people super at risk doing it actually the LVRs were much more substantial much lower I should say than

Speaker 2: and there's a good reason for that really

Speaker 3: your home loan yeah

Speaker 2: really simple because once you do it you don't refinance that to take money out of it it just is it's just there it's set forget and goes right and again you gotta you gotta ask who's who's sort of pulling the strings on this one but yeah 18 months it'll be back you'll be able to do it and that's going to be one of the consequences of it because they need to get properties out of the ground i think one of the other consequences also is that you're going to have a big issue with commercial borrowing into the future and valuation is around commercial property that whole market's going to get turned on its head now that pretty much every single property investor in their self-managed super is going after commercial property there's not that many good commercial there's

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 2: not that many commercial transactions every year and there's not that many good commercial properties Yeah. which present a good investment opportunity so you're going to find a lot of people that are going to get stuck in less than ideal performing

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: commercial

Speaker 3: Landlords

Speaker 2: assets

Speaker 3: are a inside sticky set

Speaker 2: of their superfund

Speaker 3: of landowners.

Speaker 2: i know but that's going to be the big issue where people will be going the issue is not buying resi property in your your superfund because the trajectory of the market up until that point was pretty good if you buy poor performing if you want to put people super at risk poor performing commercial but the likelihood of getting a poor performing commercial property in your super fund is a lot higher than having a poor performing residential property in your super fund i tell you that for nothing so wait and watch that as well so anyway just saying yeah

Speaker 3: there's our crystal balls for the uh

Speaker 2: we're allowed to have it let have opinions on this

Speaker 3: what

Speaker 2: julian

Speaker 3: do you think on the the trust then do you think this is its final form because because i mean i noticed that she kept on saying that the lady on the real she kept saying this is not you know this is just draft and it is just draft it's draft

Speaker 2: there'll be some deals done somewhere like there'll be some some spurious thing that no one's even thought about yet will be packaged up in this like you know i don't know what support is going to get through um through the parliamentary process uh i'm actually catching up with someone next week who should be able to give me some some some insights on this so i should be able to report back next week on on exactly how it's looking but um the devil's like no it's just strange don't get it like they go what discretionary what's the discretion what do you need that for the biggest issue it depends how it's framed right like the biggest issue is a lot of people run their business as your point they run their businesses inside of a trust which is you know depending on the advice you get you know there's pros and cons for

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: doing that

Speaker 3: and i so think

Speaker 2: that that's

Speaker 3: those

Speaker 2: probably

Speaker 3: pros and cons come outside of tax right like you've got succession you've got lots of different reasons why you might you

Speaker 2: and

Speaker 3: might

Speaker 2: that's

Speaker 3: do it

Speaker 2: a key point right that is a key point that everyone sort of took umbrage of was the fact that going people don't invest in trusts or put their assets in trust purely for the purpose of making more favorable tax outcomes

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 2: for themselves like that's a consequence of it but it's not the primary purpose people do it for a whole bunch of most my stuff sits in trust i'm a million away from getting sued at any moment like seriously like you know this is the way this is why people have stuff in trusts you

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: know, it's not because of tax minimization. You speak to some people though, they'll think, oh yeah, we've got to do that, everyone's, everyone's everyone's doing the dodge on the attack, so we're just making it mandatory 30, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2: Get stuffed, you know? And I think that's what the, the consultation was, everyone went get stuffed, you know, that's not cool. You can't do that. Like, think

Speaker 3: their framing

Speaker 2: about

Speaker 3: this

Speaker 2: it

Speaker 3: time

Speaker 2: yeah

Speaker 3: doesn't seem great either, because it just seems on the back foot, it seems rushed, it seems, you know, she said that nobody, nobody's really feeling like this is the end goal, and it's like comes

Speaker 2: it's not what was

Speaker 3: the table with dinner, do you know I mean? Like, don't, yeah.

Speaker 2: what was originally presented, uh, in the budget isn't going to be what it's going to look like, uh, moving forward, and there's still lots of room for change. And yes, look, those changes to CGT and, um, CGT and, Jesus.

Speaker 3: Negative

Speaker 2: negative

Speaker 3: gearing,

Speaker 2: gearing

Speaker 3: yeah.

Speaker 2: You know, that, that's all gone through with that little side kicker on, on SMSF's. But you know, you speak to, and I speak to both sides of politics, and the sentiment is, and again, you know, you can end up in a bit of a echo chamber or bubble, right, where you think everyone you speak to going, this is all stuff, right? Like, I spoke to a senior member, ex-senior member, who was a senator at a point in time one I was maybe saying to that, and I went, what's the sort of party saying about, he's still sort of connected, engaged with it all, and he's like, saying about what? I went, all this noise and stuff around property prices, this is prior to the rapid drop we've had over the last month or so, it's just probably four or five weeks ago, and he went, what's the problem? Like, that was the idea. Hmm, because that, that was the idea of the changes, right, was to, to balance the Australian property market. So they're not concerned at all, they're going, well, this is what we expected, you know. And they're not giving it too much so they avoid debate around it. They're thinking there's more important things going on than this, even though, you know, they get pulled today, the government get pulled in discussions around dropping of housing prices, in the amount of wealth being taken out of strangers, like, and they're going, well, this is why we did it, to do all this, this is for the the benefit of Australia.

Speaker 3: have you

Speaker 2: that we've done.

Speaker 3: seen

Speaker 2: this yeah

Speaker 3: Giant drops in the amount of first-time buyers, the amount of young people going into the coming

Speaker 2: that's that

Speaker 3: i

Speaker 2: that's

Speaker 3: mean, I guess

Speaker 2: the oxymoron

Speaker 3: maybe

Speaker 2: that, you know, would

Speaker 3: maybe time will tell, but um, would

Speaker 2: you jump in? My, you're gonna buy a home when you can, you're

Speaker 3: would

Speaker 2: you got

Speaker 3: I jump into the market right now?

Speaker 2: You had a funny accent, so you're probably not allowed to at the moment, but uh.

Speaker 3: Would I jump into it right now? I'm saying, so I do Broker Daily, I cut with the guys at Finney, and there was like you should buy now, but this is a good moment, because they, you know, it's always these, you know, it's always the moment when it starts coming back up. My friends like, oh, now, and

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: then you've missed your moment, right? And I think there is a genuine concern, particularly obviously right now. due to partly due to the prices so many people going through five percent deposit seem so many people going through help to buy all that kind of stuff and there is a genuine worry about going into negative equity I think when you look at the figures it's not as worrying as you think so yeah

Speaker 2: negatively only matters if you need to sell, you

Speaker 3: exactly

Speaker 2: know, and you're never going to turn the bottom of the market, you know, a little. Yeah, there's a legitimate, legitimate claim for, for the propensity of negative equity. Yeah, it's, it's a point. But I think the

Speaker 3: the also that the suburbs that have lost these, you know, the ones that you see on the headlines, right, they are the most expensive suburbs in Sydney and Melbourne. They're the ones that have been hit the hardest, the ones that first-time buyers would probably be buying in. Yeah, they've gone down, but not as much as, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2: since

Speaker 3: yeah exactly

Speaker 2: we're in Business Hour as well, and and and everyone else. So yeah, it's, there's certainly marketing markets. Hey mate, we've got, uh, let's sign off, because there's something else that we've got to do. Um, before we do it, can you just fill me in on this? Um, it's just interesting, right? And I asked, is this around this, what is it, is it the penthouse or something sexy

Speaker 3: Oh,

Speaker 2: there?

Speaker 3: yes. So this happened yesterday.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So this is these, this huge amount of fraud that's taken place in around borrowing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I should say alleged frauds.

Speaker 2: Alleged fraud. Here we go. Doesn't want to get sued.

Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's been an ongoing story. I mean, you as well as all of the listeners will know how much fraud has been in the headlines recently. recently. So this is just another wave of fraud, uh, in what's called Strike Force Middleton, which I quite like, um, which is basically New South Wales's, um, financial crimes, it's a special unit, uh, yeah.

Speaker 2: It's a fraud squad.

Speaker 3: They've arrested, so this, this, it's been kind of dubbed the Penthouse Syndicates, um, essentially going back to, I think it was a penthouse maybe in the Crown, I can't remember now. There's been a bunch of arrests now. Essentially, it started with using fraudulent applications to buy ghost luxury cars.

Speaker 2: Ghost luxury cars.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 2: I didn't

Speaker 3: so they don't even exist exist.

Speaker 2: exist.

Speaker 3: And then slowly it's gone to home loans, it's gone to everything. And it's, as I said, I think so far, we don't know the extent of how big the entire scheme is, but they've recovered 95 million so far.

Speaker 2: Thank you, Banks. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, NAB and CBA I think have, um, are both got self-investigating at the moment. I think CBA was one of the first, they self-reported. I think it was close to, I don't know if it was all within this one syndicate, but it was close to like a billion dollars that they reported. And this is a big kind of area. I know NABs come out and said that the AI has also played a big part in this. Few brokers have been wrapped up in it from, um, uh sub abrogate a higher money they were arrested a couple months ago this time it's brokers. yeah i think i should say it's one broker and his um and a banker um i think there was a broker prior to that as well but i'd have to check there was this time around um i think it was out in uh bankstown there was a accountant firm accountancy that

Speaker 2: What,

Speaker 3: pretty

Speaker 2: a dodgy

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: accountant in Bankstown?

Speaker 3: yeah, never heard of that. oh yeah

Speaker 2: We're having fun there, leave us alone. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: They, um, three, three were arrested there, um, and there's, you know, the money we're talking, they're going through, I think each one is double figure millions that, that they're on the hook for.

Speaker 2: Just, just, yeah, I don't know a lot about this, but listening to you there, because I sit there and just go, man, I can't even open up a bank account like

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: seriously without having to do so much KYC. Like, I said, then go, it's just too hard to do it these days, I give up.

Speaker 3: It's

Speaker 2: but

Speaker 3: Giant criminal networks.

Speaker 2: it's

Speaker 3: though.

Speaker 2: A giant criminal networks. But it just goes to show, you need, if you've only got one person that wants to commit fraud as part of the supply chain, it's impossible. And everyone needs to be explicit right across the supply chain, because you know that the, the broker's got to be doing something dodgy, the account's got to be doing something dodgy, the, the interface with the bank, they're going to have someone there who's doing something a bit dodgy, because it just wouldn't get approved, right? So this is the depth of these, these, these networks across these supply chains.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: It's probably the wrong word, it's impressive how they can do it. Like, how can you actually manipulate the system to such a degree that you can actually do this level of fraud? You got to go, wow, god, like, imagine, imagine these people put their, their, their attention to something like that wasn't criminal. They're

Speaker 3: yeah, you see them

Speaker 2: obviously smart people, right? Like

Speaker 3: get arrested and they're all in, like, trackies, you know. I thought you've been a suit, but whatever. Uh, yeah, it's, it's incredible. I guess the other part of it is, you know, AI supercharged it, right? Like, because suddenly what would take you, you know, days and days and days building ramp, you know, you can just jimmy up, you know, in a few hours.

Speaker 2: dodgy payments

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: Dodgy everything, dodgy companies, dodgy whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 3: And and, uh, the all the banks are stepping up now hard, you know. I think Silicon

Speaker 2: Well, that was the big theme yesterday, the, the bank summit was around around AI, and this, this concept which I really wasn't familiar with was, um, know your agent, not KYC, KYA, know

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: your agent. So you actually need to know your AI agent now, and this is a big thing, like, it's about to be legislated. in Singapore I believe this

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: whole concept of KYA know your agent so

Speaker 3: That's interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2: who

Speaker 3: So

Speaker 2: would have thought.

Speaker 3: where it's going.

Speaker 2: who would have thought there's more regulation coming downstream of Australia we love we love red tape we love bureaucrats we love it here in Australia regulation is great we need more regulation now before we go a mortgage broker uh

Speaker 3: Oh,

Speaker 2: brought

Speaker 3: yeah.

Speaker 2: The uh, the winner, the winner ball, the auction item to go and play a bit of, uh, tennis

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: with Albo down at the, uh, the Lodge. How about, how did that play out?

Speaker 3: Well, the whole thing was controversial,

Speaker 2: Mm.

Speaker 3: Phil, from start to finish. So there's Joseph Dowd, great bloke, lovely guy. He has taken a particular problem with the capital gains tax and the way they've extended it to. of assets. So he points out that these days CGT can be applied to a Pokemon card, um, which

Speaker 2: Yes, it can.

Speaker 3: I'm sure, I'm sure, uh, listeners might be a cross

Speaker 2: He's a younger broker. He's not some washed out bloke like me.

Speaker 3: but he raised an interesting point. I mean, one of my thought was, was, you know, he's not the first one to say this, but one that I thought was interesting is it really stifles, um, strong employment, he says. So he said, you know, lot start, startups, um, they're going to be looking at employing really, really talented people, and a lot of those times people say, I want shares, right? And if those shares blow up now

Speaker 2: Happy

Speaker 3: happy

Speaker 2: days.

Speaker 3: days, but now they're subject to the 30 minimum capital gains tax, right? He said, why are they get, why are they going to get to choose to come here to Australia then? They're going to go to the US, or they're going to go to Canada, you know, they're not going to bother anyway. So he started this sustained, um, attack on Elbow, getting his attention, which he certainly has. So he started with a billboard in Cambera airport, stopped

Speaker 2: that's

Speaker 3: the

Speaker 2: right

Speaker 3: ambition tax, then

Speaker 2: do

Speaker 3: He stepped things up, a charity auction. He bought, um, he won a charity auction so would play the, the prime minister.

Speaker 2: You really win a charity auction, do you? Are you charity 60? Yeah.

Speaker 3: Wins, Phil charity wins, um, I don't, I can't remember how much. I think it was like 16k or so. He's been... In that, he's been practicing hard. I thought was also funny, just before, um, the game, he got a skywriter to write. This is the, uh, campaign he's, uh, branded it, stop the ambition tax. And he got a skywriter across Cambera, but also across the, uh, the treasurer's home in Brisbane, I think it was, to write it in the sky above.

Speaker 2: it Really?

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: I didn't know that. I didn't see that.

Speaker 3: which was Which is pretty...

Speaker 2: mate

Speaker 3: pretty

Speaker 2: They're cheap, they're not cheapest car, right? It's like five plus grand to get, probably more, to get a bloke to go and do that.

Speaker 3: And then he played the, the PM, and he brought three, uh, Australians with him to kind of discuss their, their grievances. Yeah, so I know that one was a single mum business owner. She, she, she, um, posted...

Speaker 2: Well, they had Pimms on the lawn after the game, or was it exactly? Oh really? Okay.

Speaker 3: We played the game. This is where a bit of the controversy comes. So he played the game, the game, it was just him, none of his staff, just him and Elbow. Well, Elbow staff, I don't even want to leave him alone with, uh, with the prime minister, um. And, uh, apparently it was straight sets. He went on and immediately said it was a fixed scoreline.

Speaker 2: He reckons that the Prime Minister would cheat,

Speaker 3: well

Speaker 2: would he?

Speaker 3: that's

Speaker 2: Is that what he's claiming?

Speaker 3: I mean, amazingly the prime minister has been dragged into all this. So this was on, um, Sunrise. So yeah, he went on, he says the prime minister, there was a fixed scoreline from the staff, no one was allowed to watch, and also the prime minister would go on, uh, quote, tinkle breaks, uh, on juice for 15 minutes. Not my words. So I've really enjoyed covering this story. Anyway, so after that, the prime minister actually went on sunrise and they asked him about it. They said, well, what happened? He said, no, it was straight sets. They said my tinkle break was two minutes. I'll leave the,

Speaker 2: god

Speaker 3: I'll

Speaker 2: This is what leave probably...

Speaker 3: everyone at home to,

Speaker 2: Is what probably does is become. So they actually played a proper game, like it was a proper game?

Speaker 3: three

Speaker 2: game yeah

Speaker 3: sets.

Speaker 2: is Albo play tennis is he is he good is he good is he okay

Speaker 3: Well,

Speaker 2: was

Speaker 3: I won't say he's good, but I know

Speaker 2: really good

Speaker 3: he plays,

Speaker 2: there was

Speaker 3: yeah,

Speaker 2: no footage

Speaker 3: yeah.

Speaker 2: Of it, right? No, no, no pictures. And then what, then they sat around and write?

Speaker 3: Sat

Speaker 2: poems

Speaker 3: around afterwards,

Speaker 2: or

Speaker 3: had a cup of tea and, you know, chatted. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think he does it most years. I think it's something you can, yeah, win this.

Speaker 2: it is

Speaker 3: year

Speaker 2: something

Speaker 3: right

Speaker 2: you can

Speaker 3: do yeah

Speaker 2: something how

Speaker 3: yeah i

Speaker 2: much is

Speaker 3: Don't think usually it's meant to be a opportunity for political activism, but you know, whatever takes your fancy. I mean, a fair play to Albert for being game for it, I think. Yeah, yeah, because...

Speaker 2: He's, he's all right, like, yeah.

Speaker 3: He could have come off with some bollocks like, oh, security can't do it, like, oh, can't, can't.

Speaker 2: you you

Speaker 3: meet

Speaker 2: gotta

Speaker 3: people

Speaker 2: Like, you know, this, there's the point around, and I'm quick to defend politicians, like... Yeah, you might not necessarily agree on their politics or how they're orientating policies, but by and large, every politician. I know I've had the privilege of knowing they really care. Like, you, like Albury would really be, like, he really cares, right?

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 2: Like, he's, he's...

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: doing the best job he possibly can do, right? Um, whether or not you agree with, with, with the direction he's taking, that's fine, but you can't knock the bloke, you know, uh, for having a red hot crack. And it's a huge... huge amount of sacrifice being a politician. You...

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: can't do anything without being called in the question. You're always on the, on the defense of someone asking you a question, you know, and you've got to answer it. And I don't know if you saw over the, uh, over the week, that, that fella from, um, from Victoria, the One Nation... Yeah, president down. Like, mate, if you want to be a politician, the...

Speaker 3: you've got to get...

Speaker 2: the

Speaker 3: resi yeah

Speaker 2: type of questions that they were asking that bloke, you...

Speaker 3: savage

Speaker 2: know, it's like, you...

Speaker 3: you can make a lot more money in much easier ways if you're in those areas.

Speaker 2: Yeah, hats off to politics.

Speaker 3: And I thought as well, like, what a wonderful kind of Australian way to do politics, because you, like, play a couple rounds of tennis. I, and then...

Speaker 2: reckon

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 2: a boat race instead, you know. You get your Elbow and he's the three best blokes, and... and you and your three blokes do a boat race. I reckon Elbow back in the day, you would like that.

Speaker 3: Yeah, he would have loved

Speaker 2: you'd

Speaker 3: that.

Speaker 2: Like, to be back in the days. I think he still likes a glass of red, but, um, yeah, that's more Australian, doing a boat race. Boat race with Elbow. Someone said, they said, I reckon, like, tennis with Elbow, 15 grand, or a boat race with Elbow and his cronies, they go for a lot more than 50. I'll pay more than 15 for that. It's Australian, Australian way. Anyway... We digresses. Property Buzz, what do you think about Property Buzz?

Speaker 3: Oh, it's brilliant. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: come

Speaker 3: yeah i'll

Speaker 2: back home

Speaker 3: Bring some of these, uh, some of these tenets into, into work. They don't know.

Speaker 2: No, mate, we, we like anecdotes and, uh, uh, you know, all that sort of stuff. But you know, we, we, we sort of pull apart what's going on, right? Like, this is, you know, property, it's, uh, it's certainly interesting times, uh. And I hate that this is very sort of colloquial term and phrase, but like, no one knows what's going on. Like, no one knows. Just see what happens. Anyway, that's what I'm doing. Wait and see what happens. I don't know. I'm

Speaker 3: keeps

Speaker 2: sick of

Speaker 3: Keeps me busy.

Speaker 2: I'm

Speaker 3: For sure, sure. So yeah.

Speaker 2: I'm sure it does I'm fine a bit fatigued actually like the same old stuff can't get myself social media has been stolen by

Speaker 3: i agree

Speaker 2: properties

Speaker 3: Because, because as a journalist you want news, right? But as a human, sometimes, like, just, I like a week with nothing.

Speaker 2: Just

Speaker 3: you

Speaker 2: this year

Speaker 3: Know what leave I mean, where I me can just...

Speaker 2: alone.

Speaker 3: relax yeah

Speaker 2: Don't tell me I'm poorer today than what I was yesterday. That's how it feels like all the time And therein lies the issue that we have right across the nation. Everyone's going, you know, I feel poorer. You...

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: know, so therefore that negatively shapes my sentiments towards stuff, which means people aren't hiring. Like, the, the unemployment rates going up, and it's very, very hard. Look at numbers today compared to where it was at the start of the year, or earlier this year, unemployment's going up. We don't know what's going with CPI, I think. all four major banks have come out now saying there's No, going to be a rate rise

Speaker 3: we've

Speaker 2: Issue there may be two. Some are saying, oh, it might be, is it next week, September, something like...

Speaker 3: got yeah September 29th next

Speaker 2: or

Speaker 3: week.

Speaker 2: the, or the 11th of November, um, the same. It's not then, it may be November, uh. So there's a big amount of uncertainty there. Uh, businesses are getting slammed, you know, businesses attitude and appetite towards hiring is, is waning. You've got significant supply chain issues still within the building industry. industry and and it's hard to make a buck so you know depends how you sort of view the world you can sit there and think everything's stuffed or you can just go well that's just the way it is how do I exploit it You know. Yeah, press...

Speaker 3: i

Speaker 2: ahead

Speaker 3: mean that's

Speaker 2: within

Speaker 3: that's

Speaker 2: that it's

Speaker 3: always been, you know...

Speaker 2: a British way, isn't it? Keep calm and carry on.

Speaker 3: Come, carry on, exactly.

Speaker 2: Keep calm and carry on, that's what we're gonna do. That's Property Bars. Thanks, Julian, uh, bringing back. That was very, very good. Uh, go and check out Property Bars, let's say. Yes, so this is live, so we can't actually edit anything. So if I've said anything that's offended anyone, um, uh, you can probably send that commentary somewhere. I think it's... Lean garments. Don't let the guy that gets the point, I reckon. Now, we actually, we get, we get really positive feedback on this, so we try and keep it pretty matter of fact and loose and not too scripted and polished. And, um, you know, we're very fortunate, myself, um, guys like myself and, and Julian, we can pick up the phone and pretty much speak to anyone in the, around property. We absorb, you know, the economy, probably what's going on any day, and we can look at it through a sort of sense of aggregation where we can sort of see what really rises, um... I think you used the analogy of something to do with milk and whey and stuff.

Speaker 3: Milk, separate the fat from the way.

Speaker 2: There you go. And that's our job to try and work out what you need to know about and give some sense of commentary around it. I hope that's of value or you just find it entertaining. That's even better for me. We'll be back again next Friday morning for Property Buzz. Until then, bye-bye.

Speaker 5: The information featured in this podcast is general in nature and does not take into consideration your financial situation or individual needs and should not be relied upon. Before making any investment, insurance, tax, property or financial planning decision, you should consult a licensed professional who can advise whether your decision is appropriate for you. Guests appearing on this podcast may have a commercial relationship with the companies mentioned.